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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton 
April 25, 1993 
Cassette 2, Side 1 
 
 
Barbara Wright  00:02 
Tape two, April 25, 1993, at Olive Carlton's home. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  00:06 
To send him [?my?] parents, you know, when we were overseas and stuff. So we got all of those 
too. 
 
Barbara Wright  00:16 
Okay, so your mother was a dressmaker. Would she work on person's, like, the wedding dress at 
her own home, or would she go-- 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  00:23 
I don't know if it was a wedding dress she made, but it was like a trousseau.  
 
Barbara Wright  00:27 
Oh, okay. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  00:28 
Let me say that. I'm sure it was a kind of a trousseau, I think, but... Because all their underwear 
was all [inaudible].  
 
Barbara Wright  00:43 
What sort of-- and I take it, it had lace as well? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  00:44 
Oh, yes.  
 
Barbara Wright  00:44 
Where did the lace come from? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  00:44 
I wouldn't be surprised of Belgium lace, because that's what was very popular out there. A 
French, too? Yeah, French lace, I would say. 
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Barbara Wright  00:46 
Do you remember seeing any of these garments? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  01:02 
I used to see a lot of her sewing, yeah, the nobility that she sewed for in another [?time ship?]. 
Because I used to go visit with-- I know this one particular customer she had, that [?she?] was a 
very popular doctor, and she sewed for his wife. And I can even remember her name, Mrs. 
Porter, and I can still see her. And she used to take me in, and they used to entertain me the 
whole time Mother was there, because she'd do lot of her sewing at the ladies' house too. Now 
for why, I don't know. I don't know why she did that, but we'd stay there for about three hours, 
four hours. And then she'd be fitting her and so on. They'd take me out and entertain me, and I 
remember going in their kitchen, and they'd always have cookies and a whole bunch of stuff. 
 
Barbara Wright  02:02 
Did you feel that the cookies and treats were made-- you know, knowing that you'd come there? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  02:07 
Oh, I-- course. I don't know [laughs]. But I am sure I thought that. 
 
Barbara Wright  02:14 
Okay. What-- was that-- was food the only way that they would entertain you, or would you go 
play with her children?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  02:21 
No, because then I'd like to say, and I can remember her sitting at the piano, and she'd have me 
sitting there beside her, and I'd be singing over there, yeah. 
 
Barbara Wright  02:31 
What sort of songs would you sing with her?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  02:34 
I have no idea. Can't remember that far back. That's why my daughter-- I just said, Boy, I can't 
believe the things I'm remembering. She says, Yeah, you remember that, but you can't remember 
what you did yesterday. It's the truth [laughs]. 
 
Barbara Wright  03:12 
Except for me, I'm 24. What were some of the-- well, describe some of the dresses that she 
would make. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  03:11 
There would be one, what she wore. And I don't know what the-- I don't remember, because I 
don't know the style. I never was one to-- I was never fashion-conscious, I guess, because I really 
don't know. All I know was a lot of them was made of silk, and that could be in the 
underclothing too, because a lot of my-- Mother used to make mine too, with the material they 
had over, they would get their money. So, she got a lot that helped clothe me and my sister, 
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because my sister was only a baby. You know, there's a five years difference because-- so I was 
kind of grown-up before, and I think Mother stopped sewing by then, the [?last?] of my sisters. 
I'm sure that, because I don't remember her doing-- when we moved on to Ireland. She did it for 
a little while, and then I think it got too much for her, you know, sending it back and forth. 
 
Barbara Wright  04:24 
Was silk considered a very prestige fabric? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  04:27 
Oh yes. 
 
Barbara Wright  04:50 
What about neck lines, did necklines go to the neck, or did they ever plunge any, or? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  04:53 
I can't tell you that. I don't know. I can't remember the designs. I can hardly remember the 
designs I wore when I was a teenager, way back then. I really don't know. This is-- Grandma had 
a-- I don't... No, I don't know. A lot of these, you know, were embroideries. She'd embroider a lot 
of stuff, on her work-- dresses and [inaudible]. 
 
Barbara Wright  05:11 
How long would it take, for instance, for her to make a dress like that? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  05:22 
[?I did?] for a week. Maybe less. I don't-- as I say, I don't remember. I remember seeing her 
doing it. I remember seeing her with that-- she had this old treadle machine and a hand-crank 
machine.  
 
Barbara Wright  05:40 
How long-- how many hours a day would she spend doing that? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  05:43 
Oh, if she was doing the dressmaking, she'd spent a good day, I guess, maybe eight hours. Oh, 
I'm sure. And then, as I said, when we left Grandparents', I don't remember her doing that much, 
and I think it's just that she gave it up soon after we left England. Well, that would be about two 
years, two-and-a-half years, three years. Oh, I know. Yeah, she kept it up a while, because I 
remember now, when she came home-- once she'd visit my grandparents from Belfast, she'd 
have sewing. So I think that's what she did. 
 
Barbara Wright  06:46 
So do you know-- was she told as to what sort of a dress she was to make?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  06:52 
Mm-hmm. 
 
Barbara Wright  06:53 
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Oh, so she didn't do any design either. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  06:55 
No, she just cut it up, though. They tell her what kind of a dress she wanted-- what they wanted, 
then she cut it and make it. 
 
Barbara Wright  07:02 
Did she ever make paper patterns at all?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  07:07 
Oh, yeah, she had all kinds of paper patterns. 
 
Barbara Wright  07:11 
Did she have her own little sewing room? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  07:17 
No, when she lived at Grandmother's, she'd go up in this bedroom and do it there. Because that's 
where she had the machine. 
 
Barbara Wright  07:31 
Okay, so your father was working in England for the organ company, and he was transferred 
over to Belfast, so how did-- how were you told of the impending move?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  07:40 
I don't know. There's no-- we-- one day, everything was packed up and I was on my way in a 
train and on a boat. So I-- but I was only five. I was almost five years old when I got to England. 
These years mixed up, but I'll say eight when we got to Ireland. 
 
Barbara Wright  08:26 
Okay, what was the-- hmm, no, different one now. What was your house like in Ireland? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  08:34 
When we first went was kind of an apartment, and that was under C-- CEF. Seaside, by the 
ocean anyway, and we just had an apartment there, and we just stayed there for a couple of years, 
I think, even with-- we might not even been that long. Until the house was built that we were 
going to in Belfast. Then we moved from there, it was a place called Bangor. And we moved 
from there to the place in what they call Stranmillis, Belfast, and that was on a lager-- Lagan 
waterway. It was just... I don't know what they call them. They were all in a line, semi-detached.  
 
Barbara Wright  10:31 
Row houses? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  09:38 
We were attached to one other house, and we lived there, and it was a two-story house. Think it 
was a two-story, yeah. Was a nice, nice home, really, because in those days they were well-built 
brick. All brick. We lived there, and then from there... I guess you didn't like the... What 
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happened? Something happened anyway, they thought it best we moved from there. Oh, it was 
quite damp. We were quite close to the water, and it was always damp or something. I was 
always having congestion, lots of colds, that's what the doctor said, I guess. So they moved 
further inland, away from the water. Well, it's not really that far, because it's just a small place. 
But we moved to the last home that I remember over there. That was in Cregagh, and that was a 
house-- two together, and it was a two-story house. 
 
Barbara Wright  10:55 
And-- 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  10:55 
Brick. 
 
Barbara Wright  10:56 
Three houses had-- 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  10:57 
That was a bigger home. 
 
Barbara Wright  11:00 
And these had gas and electricity? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  11:06 
Oh yes. Oh yeah, they-- everybody had it by then. I mean, they've [?got it over there?]. 
 
Barbara Wright  11:40 
What was school like? How was it different from England? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  11:19 
It was the same, because it's all British. Belfast is under British government. So, it was just the 
same. [Sneezes] I had a little more trouble when we first moved to Northern Ireland. I had more 
trouble there, I guess, being made fun of than I did in England. England-- English kids kind of 
accepted me, but I think it was just because we were all family. You know, everybody was 
related to somebody, and I was just another relative that had come from a foreign country. I think 
they accepted me, but then when we moved over to Ireland, you know, kids can be cruel, but I 
got to learn to live with it, and I learned to laugh with them. So, I-- certainly didn't bother me 
after that, and after a while, they didn't bother me.  
 
Barbara Wright  12:14 
Who is the person within the family that dispensed the discipline, or the punishment, as it were?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  12:46 
Both. 
 
Barbara Wright  12:53 
What would be-- how would discipline be dispensed? 
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Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  13:03 
I don't know whether I was an extra good person, or-- Oh. Well, when we lived my grandparents, 
I deserved everything I got. Grandpa was the one that disciplined me. I was a great one for 
getting into trouble, climbing trees. And I understand, when I had children my own, how it used 
to scare them, because, I mean, these trees were way up there, but they had beautiful limbs. And 
I was so skinny too, believe it or not, I was a skinny person, and I had no trouble whatsoever 
getting up into those trees. And as I told you, I never fell. I never had any trouble, any accidents, 
no broken bones or anything. But I used to love doing that. And then, when I'd get done-- when 
he'd come looking for me, and he'd have a little switch with them, and I get across my knee-- 
legs. That's all. Nothing to hurt me, but just enough that I should know better not do it again. I 
didn't. And then I was forever eating, especially the peas. I'd go pull them off, and instead of 
throwing the shells, I just throw them on the ground. He didn't like that, so I'd get in trouble 
there. And then his fruit, I was always eating his fruit.  
 
Barbara Wright  14:32 
And would you get switched again?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  14:34 
Yeah, yeah, everytime. And then, especially if I-- No, he made me stay in my room. I used to 
love to get-- he had beehives, and I used to love to hear those things buzzing inside. So I'd get 
me a little stick and poke them, and the next thing I'd do, I was surrounded with bees. I'd be 
stung all over, and I-- Grandmother would be-- they had what they call a [?bluing?] I think they 
still have them. It seems to me, I saw in the store, it's like a little rock, and that's what they call 
[?bluing?], and what they whitened the clothes with. And she'd have that all on me, and it did. It 
took the sting out. 
 
Barbara Wright  15:18 
Hmm, interesting.  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  15:18 
But I never learned. I always did it again anyways. Perfect child. But with Mom and Dad, I'd say, 
it would be both of them, Mother, I think, would be stricter, especially when I started music 
lessons seriously, and she would lock me in the room so I couldn't get out. And I'd practice these 
two hours. I'd have a little time to play out with the children when I come straight from school. 
Then I'd be in there practicing, or if there was homework-- we didn't get too much homework. 
Not that I can remember anyway. I'm sure we got some, but she would do that, but Dad... The 
only time I remember him spanking me real good. He wore my [?father?] real good, and I can't 
blame him, I understand why he did it. He was scared. He was scared to death. he'd thought-- I'd 
come-- somebody had drowned in this river a wee bit close to... I'd been on my bike, and I 
always liked to go along the river road. And he knew I was there, and he heard about this young 
person drowning, and he thought it was me. And there I was just standing, watching them pulling 
the body out, and just not paying, you know, and I should have been home. I guess that's the 
thing. I wasn't home, I was supposed to be. And he just dragged me by the arm, and he kept 
spanking me, and he kept spanking me and spanking, [inaudible] in the river. That's the only 
time I remember my dad getting so mad at me. But I don't know, I don't know any other... 
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Barbara Wright  15:18 
You kind of-- what about public displays of affection? It's, you know, it's very common in 
society for, you know, to hug a child or in public? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  16:58 
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, we were-- we're very huggy, kissy people. Still to this day. 
 
Barbara Wright  17:11 
Did your parents ever have any disputes, fights? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  16:12 
You know, we brought up that subject somewhere-- a meeting I was at, people my age and you 
know, really, we never heard our parents fighting. They did it in private. If they did it at all. I 
never-- oh, I heard sometimes, Mother, you know, if you get annoyed with somebody, Oh, I wish 
you do this, you know? But you knew she didn't mean it, you know, just talking. But as for 
fighting, no, I don't ever-- maybe it was a bad thing. Maybe if they fought in front of us, maybe 
would have been better for me, because I can't, to this day, I can't stand fighting with my 
husband. Talk back to him or fight with him. 
 
Barbara Wright  17:29 
Once your sister--  because once you were in Ireland, your sister was about four this at time 
now? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  18:53 
She was just a toddler when we went over there, she would be... I know I'm not getting the years 
right.  
 
Barbara Wright  18:59 
You don't have to be right, just approximate. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  19:02 
I know she was a toddler. She had to be two, I guess. One, two, three, four, five, six. Yeah, that'd 
be right, because I said-- what did I say, seven when I went? Yeah, that would be right. She'd be 
about two. 
 
Barbara Wright  19:12 
What sort of family traditions do you have? For instance, like within our family, we have 
Thanksgiving dinner as opposed to Christmas dinner, and we open presents always on Christmas 
Day, never on Christmas Eve.  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  19:22 
That's right. That's the kind we have. That's always Christmas Day. I never can understand this 
Christmas Eve thing. To this day, I can't understand it, but I know a lot of people do it for a lot of 
reasons. Because when we were in the States, we celebrated Thanksgiving. I can-- I really don't 
think I can remember clearly about those holidays. So there either weren't exceptional, because I 
think the things you remember the most are things that were exceptional. I think that's what I'm 
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remembering way back, but I know we celebrated, because I got clips from the paper from Dad, 
different parties that we attended. He was in the news all the time. So I got those clippings, so we 
had to-- Thanksgiving and Christmas. When we got to England, we didn't have Thanksgiving as 
such. We had harvest, that was [?due to?] Thanksgiving. 
 
Barbara Wright  21:06 
When would harvest be? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  21:07 
When did the harvest-- 
 
Barbara Wright  21:16 
And what is it a specific— 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  21:22 
October, isn't it? I don't know. 
 
Barbara Wright  21:07 
Was it-- it would be just a specific-- would it, like, would the date change according to the 
weather conditions, or would it always happen on a specific date?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  21:14 
Oh, it was kind of a special time, yeah. Was the same time for every-- 
 
Barbara Wright  21:22 
What month it was? I think you might've said the month if I remember correct. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  21:29 
I don't know. Christmas was always a good time. Easter.  
 
Barbara Wright  21:31 
What would the family do for Easter? Would you get a new dress, new shoes?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  21:42 
Mm-hmm. Oh, yes, you really dress up. I'd have to wear it like when I was a little kid, I didn't 
care about it, but I had to wear a hat, and a dress, and shoe. Really dress up. 
 
Barbara Wright  21:56 
Were you-- because a lot of the Easter colors are light colors or white, did you ever feel-- what's 
the word I'm looking for, sort of repressed because you couldn't get dirty, you had to be 
[inaudible]? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  22:08 
Oh yes. Couldn't play in my Easter dress. So I got it off as soon as I could when I got home. 
 
Barbara Wright  22:14 
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Were the Christmases any different in Ireland than what you'd spent in England? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  22:21 
Not that I remember, because we kind of-- this one thing, especially Dad, he kept our 
Americanism alive too, especially when we got to Ireland, we did things-- and it seems to me, he 
would always, kind of celebrate Thanksgiving, you know, Mom and Dad and my sister, you 
know. Because he thought here was home for him too, you know, he left it. So he kept a lot, and 
Mother did it to please him, you know, kept a lot of our Americanism alive. But I was never-- I 
was never allowed to forget that I was an American. 
 
Barbara Wright  23:17 
How many different citizenships do you have? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  23:19 
Just the one. When I was born, over here, is what they call a dual national, so when I became 21-
- oh, I'm jumping ahead. When I became 21, I had to decide if I wanted to turn to the British or 
to stay an American. It was always stay an American, you know, but I could have taken on the 
British if I wanted to, but no way. So I had to take the oath and Pledge of Allegiance at the 
Embassy in London. No, I didn't. Excuse me. I took it in Belfast, Northern Ireland, they had the 
embassy there, and that's where I took my American-- to verify that I just wanted to be an 
American. That's why nobody else could touch me when the war broke out. I was an alien over 
there, until we got into the war. 
 
Barbara Wright  24:30 
Explain to me the basic school system structure; grade school, high school, and so on. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  24:37 
Well, you start when you're four years old, and you're writing in your first grade. 
 
Barbara Wright  24:44 
And that would be when you're six, or when you're-- 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  24:48 
When you're six. No, before that. You start when you're four. When you're five, you're writing or 
printing, I guess. And then, by the time you get to six, you-- you're able to write. Think that's 
what it was. And then you only go... Was it 14? 14 when you leave school. I mean, you're all 
through what we'd be high school, you're through school. I had to spend one year extra because I 
was ahead of myself. Not-- I know, I'll tell you, was that I was smart or anything, I just was able 
to grasp it better somehow. Well, I had part of my school in England, and then went over to 
Ireland, I was ahead of myself. They put me up a grade in Ireland, because there must have been 
something different, because I went ahead of myself there. I don't remember, but then, when you 
turn 15, you go into a trade school. And that's how-- I think-- I can be wrong, I can be way out 
[?in the highland?]. I think they still do that. That's what we need here. 
 
Barbara Wright  25:47 
And so when you turn 14 or 15, is that when you went to the universities to study [inaudible]-- 
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Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  26:20 
Well, I was doing that before that. Okay, yeah, I was doing that for the music. I started when I 
was about 12. It's kind of a-- it's associated with those universities and the college. You don't 
actually go to the-- you have a tutor that is associated with that college and the university. You 
might as well be there, because you're doing exactly the same work, you know, you're learning 
all this stuff. 
 
Barbara Wright  26:56 
So when you finished the regular school and like with the other children, then what would you 
do? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  27:01 
Then I went, because I was really into music-- and when I was about 15, I guess or 16, because I 
was studying my music all this time that I was out, I never was out of learning. Even when 
school, my grade school, finished, I was still learning my music, because you had theory and you 
had all the history of music, learning by composing and all this. And then after that, my parents 
decided, well, I should have something like an office skill and a friend of theirs was starting up 
this private school. Well, what they call it? Where you work with lawyers. It's like secretarial 
work. Private secretary, something like that, and that was to learn bookkeeping, shorthand, 
typing. But you didn't have any computers or anything, and the only thing he had was those old 
Underwoods, typewriters. So, I'm really proud of my parents for making me do that. I didn't 
mind it. I mean, it's just something they told me I had to do, and you did it. There's no arguments. 
But I'm glad they did, because that did come in handy in my later years as secretary of stuff, 
although I never really had to use my shorthand. People I worked with, I could type it. I'm a 
typewriter. You know, did pretty good on that. 
 
Barbara Wright  28:55 
The general mentality back then was when you had daughters, that they get married and have 
children. 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  29:00 
That was about what it was. But not me. 
 
Barbara Wright  29:05 
Why did you feel that, you know, marriage wasn't an absolute automatic thing? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  29:10 
I don't know. I was too busy doing other things. I was busy with my music. I never thought about 
it. I never-- the first time I dated was alive today. I was 21 years old. I mean, to call it a date.  
 
Barbara Wright  29:28 
I think you're still living at your parents? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  29:33 
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Oh, yes, I was living with my parents until I left in '44. I travel a lot too, between England and 
Ireland. I had a lot of different things to go to. I'd started designing my show clothes, you know, 
and friends used to like them, and so before I knew it, Mother and I were doing it with them too. 
And then, there was a store in Belfast that was opening for somebody to help them with their 
sewing. So I decided to go there, and get away, you know, just have something different than my 
music. And I stayed there. They kept me there until I got into-- Uncle Sam called me into the 
service. 
 
Barbara Wright  30:27 
In Ireland, what sort of school functions were there? Like, were there any sort of proms or 
dances? 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  30:33 
No. That's what I may-- I get very jealous when I hear all these people are going to have these 
reunions. I haven't got anything like that, nothing. 
 
Barbara Wright  30:50 
Do you miss any of those people? Or is it just sort of kind of a... 
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  30:52 
No, [?just died out?]. I mean, I left there, or when I used to go visit my parents, I'd meet quite a 
few of them, but a lot of them left from where we live, and a lot of them went to Australia and 
settled there.  
 
Barbara Wright  31:07 
Why did a lot of them go to Australia?  
 
Olive Mary Milbourne Carlton  31:09 
They had land that the government, they wanted out of Australia, for people. They needed people 
over there. So they gave money to these people to go over there and start, and that's where a lot 
of the-- [tape cuts off]. 